Fifth Freedom Coop Assembly
August 2nd 19.00 CET
Order of the day
1. Start to organize the economic management team and the work of it.
We are preparing a pad with some info about: https://titanpad.com/EMTfreedomcooproadmap
Notes on point 1
last week Maro and Mario went to the CIC to look deeper into how they work internally and made a pad to collect all the important information we gathered there. As there are lots of pads, here it is in the index of freeedom coop related pads: https://titanpad.com/freedomcoop-pad-index So currently there are two teams, greek and spanish. Both are just starting and new.. The main initial tasks are registering and getting started using freedom coop’s legal form in these areas. So we are now at the stage of finding out what tasks and roles will need to be assigned to different people.
A lot of things are clear now but also there are many things to decide and to learn, which will help to create the organization and routines on the group clarifying what to do and how to do it. we have to make sure these groups are well organised (gestion economica, the CIC group that does this is very well organised IMO) and these new people have what they need to work and survive while working.. maybe we can have separate meetings and report back on that kind of thing, or prepare it in a pad.
Also the people involved can share their economic needs: the greek group say that for now they dont have necesities to be cover at the moment, so as not all the team are in the assembly we will leave this point for later discussion. (ruth later updated on her needs in the spanish economic group: 200-250€/month)
As new members join we will understand which global tasks there are, and what level of economic support they and the members need.
All regional groups can report to the main economic management telegram group somehow.. it’s like a “local nodes group” for economical management teams.
Perhaps in the next assembly we can go in deep about the global economical management tasks and how we can afford them?
2. Roadmap for the launch.
As OCP still has many layout and funcionality changes, and gestionci isn’t even set up, shouldn’t we call this the “alpha launch”?
Also there is another pad with legal info about some issues related to taxation, registering in other countries in the EU: https://titanpad.com/freedomcoop-economical-management
Notes on point 2
Some people report their concerns because there is a lot of things to do and solve technically so they propose to call it alpha or beta launch. Alpha sounds more like a test. We could say that Freedom Coop is Beta but some of the elements in OCP are still alpha. Some suggest early beta put on the web something like “you can have early access to our beta”
we want to use august time, to learn with real people who are joining and be able to cover more needs already in september.
Xavi say he thinks first members need to have some confidence, referring to people close to us, and understand it’s beta. We are not going to make a so big campaign still, but some of us have big nearby circles..So we are going to share it in our websites and social media and perhaps we can wait until one or two weeks more, to publish in bigger news..Also in the news article, we could add to ask the first users who join to be patient, because at the beginning there will be some things that can be improved…perhaps this can be said in a more positive way, like “help us in the beta process”. Perhaps only first to FC members and freedom coop newsletter subscribers, and a few days later, the social media and other wider reaches… just sync with the appearing features process, then depending on how much work we have with the first line of contacts, we can move faster or slower for the social media…
The most that can happen is that OCP main issues might need some more days..: there are a lot of things to do there. Most of these are also on the launch pad. It is clear, that we are going to coordinate all that work and if we see a major reason we will delay it some more days, but we are going to try for thursday-friday.
In OCP we are going to manage membership, and people will be able to use it to pay their membership fee and OCP will still be difficult to use, but some people will be able to begin to create their projects if they spend time on it. (or are supported by one of us!)
3. Clarifing concepts agreeing on details related to quarterly fees.
– The first column(on the management page of the freedom coop website) are quarterly amounts. The second and third are quarterly also. This should be clear there
– The way how to count the amounts should be clear.
– Invoices of incomes less Invoices of expenses. *(bumbum: how to do invoices of expenses? if promoting the use of FC vat number we’ll have the risk of non payed bills, if accepting any ticket we’ll need to define how to manage that, if trusting the member with a free field is dificult to check by a local node)
– Internal payments between members should be added to the accounting even if they have no invoices.
– External incomes/ without invoices could be added as a good willing action because this countributes to the common good and fair economy we are building all together.
– If amounts are from a collective project, where more than one person is paid, the
amount should be divided by the number of coop workers based on their personal salary. So in this way the table is still fair when more than one person is working on same project.
– So in group projects, each person should note which part of their work/incomes come from that project.
Calculation example for 1 Person: 6000€/quarterly incomes minus 3000€/quarterly expenses= 3000€ quarterly profit = 290€/quarterly fees (per person)
Calculation example for 2 Person: 6000€/quarterly incomes minus 3000€/quarterly expenses= 3000€ quarterly profit = 290€/quarterly fees divided by 2 = 145€ quarterly per person
3000€ quarterly profit =1000€ base each 290 quarterly/3= 96,6 (in comparison individually is 50)
2 persons a 1200 base, 1 person 600 = 70 + 70 +30 = 170
About the profit fees we need to consider, that 60% will be redistributed to the Local Nodes which means if a collective pays 2410€ (based on 10000€ with max%) 1446€ go to the LN and will support the alternative economic system in the region and though also has benefits for the paying project/collective/cooperative. Just 964€ goes to Freedom Coop Administation (9,64%) to pay running expenses.
* To evaluate the number of participants that do paid work in a collective projects should be needed or use OCP for task management or have the trust of a local node that knows the project physically.
Notes on point 3
The most important part, is to explain a clear process about what the incomes means, so, what means that 0-300 301-500 etc…and the proposal that we have been working on is just that this means salary by person this seems the easy way to explain and manage it This means that after incomes and payments are accounted for, the remaining is for salaries. if it is an individual project, here we are, if it is a collective project, we need to look at each member’s salaries then we will get the fees, making a sum of all the members. (salary + savings or reinvestment). In this way, the accounting is the same wether it is a salary or if they decide to keep it as a reserve or whatever. To notice the number of members of the projects we would give two options:
1. they use OCP for managing the project
2. they are accounted for by a local node (do you mean the local node runs their accounting?)
This would be the two ways for a collective project to be noticed as group and not as an individual, so that they can have lower fees.
A proposal is if we could change instead of asking a fee to ask for a donation. I am sure it will make a difference for tax purposes. We can maybe talk about this in the next assembly or in the EMT group. So for example people who use OCP and don’t pay fees (thus making no invoices) may have the possibility to donate.
4. specific services and fees in the case of legal entities.
Legal entities can be interested in being members of Freedom Coop in order to avoid b2b VAT payments inside their country.
So for example if they do a B2B sale within the same country of 1000 euros, the cost becomes 1210 with VAT or similar.
If they use Freedom coop as a middleman, that VAT is avoided
B2freedomcoop / freedomcooptoB cost of 1000 euros is sustained.
To create fees for that kind of resource, we have two options
– to charge a small fee in the invoices itself and make that money reach freedom coop’s common fund. For example it could be a fee of 5% (in the example above, the final invoice would be of 1050)
– To create a quarterly fees table which is paid at the end of the quarter.
The only reason to have quarterly fees is to be able to choose a nonflat progession, but in this case it doesn’t seem fair to do progressive taxing, because this is not the main economical activity of members (i mean most of the invoices could go still directly to clients)
A very different option is to make discount for big amounts. So for example 5% for less of 2000 euros. 4% between 2000 and 4000, etc…
Anyway my proposal should be to begin with flat payment each time to make it easier.
Perhaps this could be 5% in general and 2% in case of reduced VAT like basic foods, and see how it goes. And of course this should be paid in faircoin.
Notes on point 4
The point is that to avoid paying VAT taxes between two coops inside the same country, it could be better to sell the goods to freedom coop, and then freedom coop would sell to the client cooperative, in this way it’s easy: VAT is 0. This could be an example about how already formed coops could use freedom coop. This creates some work and some responsabilities for freedom coop, so we need to get appropiate fees for this way of participating, so it can not be the same fees and table that in the other case, because here the invoices in both directions have the same cost, so then fees would be zero, which does not make sense.
The proposal is to make it simplier, and just get a % of the value of the invoices, this could be 5% for normal products and 2% in case of products that have a specific reduced VAT.
We also would combine euros and faircoin, when moving money to avoid any problems in that sense. One or both should be members so they manage the transaction themselves as autonomous projects with access to a bank account and to invoicing.
We agree it’s a good idea, so in order to be sure legally how to do it, we agreed to ask the legal team
5. Procedures and conditions for money movements and faircoin use inside Freedom Coop.
– Freedom Coop members who are self employed projects can use a betabank virtual account to receive their external payments in euros.(how to create a betabank virtual account for members? Info should be available for new members)
Any payment done or received with bank account must have invoice, except payments to other members inside betabank accounts. (that ones can be done with username)
– Change to Cash should happen with local nodes or in a way that not proof personal incomes. Freedom Coop will help to get the better way to do it.
– Also can use OCP to receive their external payments in faircoin.
– They can do what they want with the 90% of euros that they receive, but at least the other 10% must to be converted to their OCP account in faircoin.
With that faircoin, they can pay the fees to freedom coop quarterly, and also they can participate in internal market to other freedom coop members or using the faircoins in fairmarket. With this metodology all the participants contribute to the internal market that freedom coop builds as part of FairCoop.
At short term that conversion would happen manually each time a transfer is received by the economical management team (10% will be moved to common betabank account, and transfer will be done to OCP faircoin account.
Middle term, we could make a connection API that does the process automatically.
Question: Is it possible for Freedom Coop to convert parts of the OCP Faircoin Common fund into Euros? We will still need Euros to pay taxes, registration fees, some salaries etc.
Are we tracking/linking the incomes to getfaircoin for the use of Freedom Coop somehow?
We can create a freedemcoop category of buying in getfaircoin for tracking team.
These rules, should be clear so that it’s easier to explain to the projects
one rule, is bank account only should be used for payments if there are invoices, unless the movements are inside betabank accounts (both). To get money outside betabank, should be by cash not transfering to your personal account without invoice.
And one important proposal is that for payments received in a bank account, at least 10% should be converted to faircoin to boost the internal economy.
Another point is “who can get access to a betabank account”? mainly these should be the projects carrying out economical activity, but there have been some talks about that also could be used for personal savings. We need to decide on the conditions for this second option. For example since a minimal of xxx amount to save and also 10% should be converted to faircoin, but this will need more deep debate so we leave it to the next assembly
We need to have it on a server so the team can learn how it works for accountability and ready for the launch
https://gitlab.com/cooperativa-integral-catalana/gestioCI Xavip will do this.
–> no need to discuss the topic GestioCI now i guess
7. Freedom Coop logo proposals/decision??
Notes on point 7
We discuss about the origami version and decide to use it as logo and the design of birds in a “v” formation also inside the web and violet as color.
As the debate about fonts and style in FairCoop is still open we decide to continue the debate in the design group to try to have a collaborative work and present some proposals that the general assembly can vote and close the process
Note: this discussion lasted an hour!